Forums - Please...stop grabbing me, it's cheap!!! Show all 107 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- Please...stop grabbing me, it's cheap!!! (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1010) Posted by bahn on 03:02:2001 02:57 PM: A rather interesting experience occurred this Wed. when Sabin and I visited the local arcade spot located within the Port Authority which really makes me wonder about the whole honor and skill balance. Basically we were there fooling around and playing against some of the players there. My first match on CvS was against a player which I met during the era that Playland was still around here in NYC. Upon taking him out, one of the biggest things he had issues with was the fact that I was grabbing him. If not by anticipating his attack and then grabbing him...other opportunities simply resulted in me walking right up to him and grabbing him. Thus he cried out as to how cheap it was. The same situation came up when I played against another player using Ryu/Terry, his strategy mainly consisted of lots of zoning and it was relatively difficult to get in (until I of course later figured out his whole gameplan), thus in my first match against him, I began throwing. Once again, complaints flew out along with his immediate defense to proclaim how "good" and skilled he was. (yet another time was in A3, using crossups into grabs and such...CF players whine alot bout throws) I explained that this is one tactic that's especially used in tournaments, but even so...does that mean throws should only be applied in a justified event? Why does it have to be so "cheap" in casual play? In fact, why can't ppl just learn how to reverse moves and such instead of complaining. It's something that's been on my mind over the past few years, and it's only arisen as of recent. My question is, especially in relation to CvS, how can any players sit there and complain about grabs when Capcom has integrated a throw escape feature? I could understand in the case of A3 as tech throws on the ground are somewhat difficult to execute. But in games such as A2, ST, CvS, and 3s...even the 3D titles such as Soul Calibur and Tekken Tag have throw reversal/escape features. Why are players still complaining? Are you one of them, if so, why does this controversial tactic that has existed in the fighting community so many years still irk players of today? Comments are highly appreciated and welcome... The Next Level "Power is useless without skill and speed" [This message has been edited by bahn (edited 03-02-2001).] Posted by olds on 03:02:2001 03:13 PM: I dont really use throws as much as I used to but then in the old days when they were irreversable they used to do crazy damage Its part of the game and has been since the beginning, get used to it. Posted by Yushiro on 03:02:2001 03:18 PM: That's a very good question and I feel that most player's are missing or forgetting that throw's can be important and really should be added to everyones gameplay experience. But I do hear the constant complaint's of throwing espiecally in casual play since I'm trying to get better on how to setup my throw's and super throws. They keep telling me why do you have to be so cheap with those throws? I usually have a couple of explanation's and I've gotten better dealing with opponent's that throw me many times since I've felt that I've allowed myself to get throwned which I deserved but I do try to tech-hit out of throw's in CvS and it's still not easy for me to get out of the throw's. But usually I tell them their weaknesses because whenever they have blocked too much on the ground when I have a great ground game going and I simply can not land a blow on my opponent then I throw him. The only times that I've throwned my opponent's is when they have blocked all my attack's and have turtled away from me. I crossover them with a jumping roundhouse or short and fake my combo with a throw after connecting with a crouching short or just feel like throwing your opponent if they tend to zone too much... I'm not one of the type of people that argue's about getting throwned but I think a lot of us just find's it annoying and just probably need's to include the throwing aspect of the game if we are ever going to become better players. My gameplay style only has me throwing around 2-3 times during a round and I'm wondering if I really need to throw more then just those amount of times since I don't consider throwing part of my gameplay. Escaping throw's seem to be harder to do nowadays and I feel that a lot of player's haven't learned the aspect of trying to see that they are about to be throwned and just try to tech escape out of those throws. Unfortunately in CvS, special or super throw's cannot be escaped except other then jumping away from the grappler's or getting away from EX Vice. It's probably why throwing is still very useful in closing in on your opponent's mental weakness. I'm glad that you put your time making this thread since I really feel that I need to add the throwing aspect to my gameplay and not worry about throwing against my opponent...^_^ http://psychosquall.homestead.com/files/yushirodiz5.jpg Posted by psx2000 on 03:02:2001 03:18 PM: i think it stems from old sf2 ww people said jab into throw over and over u cant get out and i guess it stuck ever since ,and i rememeber the other rule was u give the guy a win 2 round no matter what happens so it goes to a round 3. http://www.peyros.com/tags/PSXtag.gif Posted by Bezerka on 03:02:2001 03:32 PM: I agree 100% with the original post, throwing ain't cheap at all. I usually play Third Strike and thou my parrying skills are proably below average i can pull of alot of wins by grabbing the other guy to death. (say they jump in and i know they will parry my dp so i throw when they land) Im actually surprised this tactic works at all considering how easy it is to get out of a throw in the game. The worst thing is when poeple call me cheap but i sually respond with "if u were good enough u coukld have countered the throws" Posted by Yushiro on 03:02:2001 03:51 PM: I also agree that throw's aren't considered cheap however we have to consider the fact that most people in most areas still hate to be throwned and I feel that we just haven't taught them how to play SF propery or to include throwing in their gameplay style... At least I've helped a couple of fellow player's increase they're gamestyle by throwing more then not throwing at all since they were afraid to throw a opponent once or twice in each round...I just think that if you can control a match with just throw's to throw off the opponent's mental thinking then I think it's a lot more useful to consider throwing as a necessary part of becoming a better play I hope. http://psychosquall.homestead.com/files/yushirodiz5.jpg Posted by bahn on 03:02:2001 04:10 PM: Heh...I remember a year ago though I actually found myself being upset at Eddie Lee when I decided to get back into 3s and all he did for the whole match was dash back and forth and grab. I was annoyed becuase I wanted to actually like...fight, not get grabbed for the whole match. I actually sit back and laugh at the whole thing now though http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "Power is useless without skill and speed" Posted by CykoClops on 03:02:2001 04:15 PM: grabbing ain't cheap... viscant once was grabbing the hell outta his opponent with his storm, i don't find it cheap cause it wasn't very hard to counter http://home.iprimus.com.au/dittmanshum/cykoclops.gif Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:02:2001 05:21 PM: Grabbing isn't cheap, but is something that gets people really ticked off during casual play. In a tournament situation, anything goes... but there are a lot of people out there that acually use these supposed "code of ethics" when playing in an non-tournament situation. It's something that I keep in mind whenever I go to an arcade where I don't know anyone. Personally, I try my hardest not to grab anyone when I play for I know it tends to cause tension with certain players. If I do, I offer a chance for my opponent to get a free grab instantly. Then, my opponent will either "agree" to it and get the free grab (which shows me that they think the tactic is "cheap"), or the'll tell me to not worry about it (which shows me that I'm playing someone who doesn't think grabs are "cheap"). It's just an extra step I take whenever I play games these days that makes it slightly more enjoyable for the both of us. Then again, we all know that I'm a "wimp" when it comes to this chivalry stuff anyhow... Posted by DarthSalamander on 03:02:2001 06:18 PM: I think maybe some people get mad because when you throw it exposes the fact they were sitting on their ass thinking they were safe. I get that sometimes in MvsC2, where I throw a lot just to shake people up. They always will block after a hit, so I throw them again and again. Then they realize they can't just ram the contoller into block and be safe. So they call it cheap. "You spoony bard!" - Tellah(he died for you) Posted by Monkey on 03:02:2001 06:37 PM: I dont think that throwing is cheap, but if you throw all the time, it might get irratating. Thats all I really have to say about that. But I do have a question. How do the top players around figure out their opponents gameplans so quickly? I know that it is a good thing to have in your game, but I just dont understand how people do it so quickly.. What are the basic things you want to look for when you are trying to figure this out?? Should I just watch the person play, and then see their pattern? And if they dont have one, just keep a look out for what they do, and be safe or whatever? Peace. -Monkey Monkey4907@home.com http://monkeyboi4907.tripod.com/chipptag.gif Posted by bahn on 03:02:2001 07:15 PM: quote: Originally posted by Monkey: How do the top players around figure out their opponents gameplans so quickly? I know that it is a good thing to have in your game, but I just dont understand how people do it so quickly.. What are the basic things you want to look for when you are trying to figure this out?? Should I just watch the person play, and then see their pattern? And if they dont have one, just keep a look out for what they do, and be safe or whatever? Well...if only there was a handbook out there, I'd certainly point you to it. Quickly adapting to one's gameplay hinges itself on two things: experience and personal skill. The latter is complemented by a players experience, and for many "top" players, this is an aspect that's simply natural for them. Though overall, any player who you go up against is bound to have a series of patterns or techniques which they will routinely utilize, the trick is knowing when and where they'll be executed during gameplay. An average player at best will have a few tactics or "tricks up their sleeve" so to speak. To other players of the same skill level, it's bound to catch a few players off guard - perhaps a majority of them. However, an above average (or elite player, if you will) who's played the game extensively and has a solid degree of experience under their belt will be able to pick up their patterns and tactics with ease. How? There are a number of ways this is possible: Just to use myself as an example, players that tend to use Chun and Charlie are in essence an open book to me, mainly because I extensively play these characters, thus any particular style or setups that are thrown at me will not take long to adapt to, since I am personally aware of their strenghts and weaknesses. Though there will be times one hasn't personally used the character at all, but they're still aware of the character's faults/strengths...thus the more experience player is able to establish strategies that outweigh that of their opponent. I can recall over the years when I'd face players who had an aggressive style, but then quickly discovered that their tactics weren't effective and thus diverted to a defensive disposition, which at times proved to have better results. Situations will vary, some players will never get the sense of why they're losing. Usually because of lack of experience, or just the knack of having a fast adaptive curve...having this trait is very effective/important to every player's strategy. Some will over the course of time be able to hone their abilities to adapt quicker...and others are fortunate enough to just be blessed with this aspect (heh, almost like its a god given talent or something). Personally what I do is look for patterns, gaps in their gameplay. Best way to describe it is like a player's checklist. What moves do they use to zone with? Are they effective? Can they successfully avoid cross-ups? How consistently do they use supers...are they used for wakeups, "psychic" situations, or are they just randomly thrown out? Basically things like this run through my mind...it's something I can quickly determine during the first match. Sometimes, I will even throw a match just to see if I can pick up anything else. There's no one way to discover how to decipher your opponents gameplay, and I am sure that other "pro" players will provide their own two cents as to what can be done (this actually would make a better post in Strategy and Tactics btw...why not start up a seperate thread there?) http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "Power is useless without skill and speed" Posted by AKUMA2000 on 03:02:2001 07:19 PM: Bahn...there's NOTHING cheap in SF, including throws. If players sit there complaining and whining about getting thrown constantly, then they don't need to be on the SF battlefield. Your ONLY objective is to kill your opponent no matter HOW it's done... I have yet to read anywhere in a SF manual where it says you can't throw, corner, zone, trap, juggle, etc..until then, it's survival of the fittest... AKUMA'S LAIR http://members.tripod.com/~Streetfighter_3/akuma-stance-2.gif "It's All About Which Warrior Is Left Standing" Posted by Strider Hiryu on 03:02:2001 07:20 PM: Ehh.. Throws arent cheap.. I cant some people live by that wack ass code of honor.. I think it all stems back from those SF WW days when throw reversals was hard as shit and throws took like 35%. Throws are an integral part of the game .. HOw else can you deal with turtles.... http://www.peyros.com/tags/StriderTag.gif Prepare to DIE....[8/27] Posted by CgHuReInS on 03:02:2001 07:22 PM: I think in general, any move that you use over and over which the opponent can't figure out how to escape will be considered "cheap". Hence, newcomers in MvC2 will think that keepaway with Cable or traps are cheap. Once they play the game a little more and figure out how to beat whatever simple, repetitive tactic you're using, then they'll stop thinking that it's cheap. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~guen/friends/jr.gif Junior Junior Junior Posted by Elu on 03:02:2001 07:32 PM: quote: Originally posted by psx2000: i think it stems from old sf2 ww people said jab into throw over and over u cant get out and i guess it stuck ever since ,and i rememeber the other rule was u give the guy a win 2 round no matter what happens so it goes to a round 3. <IMG SRC="http://www.peyros.com/tags/PSXtag.gif"> You can get out. The timing just had to be precise. You had to anticipate the throw and throw them first or uppercut that shit. Elu Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:02:2001 07:32 PM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: Personally, I try my hardest not to grab anyone when I play for I know it tends to cause tension with certain players. If I do, I offer a chance for my opponent to get a free grab instantly. Then, my opponent will either "agree" to it and get the free grab (which shows me that they think the tactic is "cheap"), or the'll tell me to not worry about it (which shows me that I'm playing someone who doesn't think grabs are "cheap"). It's just an extra step I take whenever I play games these days that makes it slightly more enjoyable for the both of us. When I run into someone I don't know who gets frustrated when they're thrown, I just make every effort to throw them as often as possible. People don't play as good when they're mad. Posted by bahn on 03:02:2001 07:36 PM: quote: Originally posted by Elu: You can get out. The timing just had to be precise. You had to anticipate the throw and throw them first or uppercut that shit. Elu Heh...you tell em Elu - kick his ass!!! Hehe. Posted by REALPLAYER on 03:02:2001 08:51 PM: As of recent, I've learned that throws aren't cheap, but before, I used to think that they were. The reason is because of the philosophy---"If I'm blocking, I shouldn't be taking damage". Truth of the matter is, without throws (and block damage), turtling would take a whole new meaning. All you would have to do is get the lead and turtle the rest of the match. Players (don't call them scrubs 'cause they don't know any better) don't realize this for the simple fact that they don't think about games as heavily as the next player, they just "play" the game. So next time someone calls you a cheapass for throwing, get the lead, and turtle like hell, and watch him start throwing you. Then he'll understand why throws are important. If he still doesn't get it, then he's beyond help. Hey Bahn, that arcade on the Port Authority (Too Much Is Not Enough!) is way too expensive!!!! Unless you went to the other one by that HUGE Sony place. Wait a minute, that one is expensive too! There's no comp. in those places. Posted by Monkey on 03:02:2001 08:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by bahn: Insert long ass post here The Next Level "Power is useless without skill and speed" Thanks for all the help. I'll be looking for all those attributes now when I play. I'm going to Philly for a tourney this weekend, and I just wanted something extra that I could look for, so Thank you. -Monkey Monkey4907@home.com http://monkeyboi4907.tripod.com/chipptag.gif Posted by Monkey on 03:02:2001 08:59 PM: Sorry, double post.. [This message has been edited by Monkey (edited 03-02-2001).] Posted by QUITESSENCE on 03:02:2001 09:21 PM: Personally, I don't think throws are cheap along with anything else in a game.It's all about stragety. When I fight a person my stragety goes like this"What is this guy's weakness and how can I use it to my advantage?".If the person attacks alot I use DPs, if he's very defensive I use overheads and throws.If throws were cheap then I would be THE CHEAPEST PERSON IN THE WORLD WITH CHUN-LI IN SFII TURBO(Sorry Bahn, I like CHUN-LI as much as you do).Throws, like everything, else are tactical weapons that you use to defeat your opponent.From SF Turbo with Chun-li's c.forward then throw(My favorite)to my jab and throw in CVS it's all about stragety.If people hate throws that bad then why don't they counter them? It works with jabs, roundhouses, anything as long as you can predict it coming and even when you aren't.Throws aren't cheap. You just have to find a way around them like you would any other projectile or special move if you want to be a good player that is. To fight,giving one's all without regret.That is the essence of a warrior. [This message has been edited by QUITESSENCE (edited 03-02-2001).] Posted by on 03:02:2001 09:24 PM: I air throw occasionally...depending if the character I'm using has the ability. I don't find throwing to be cheap...because quite frankly, most players these days are too full of themselves to even expect to be thrown. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by QUITESSENCE on 03:02:2001 09:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: I air throw occasionally...depending if the character I'm using has the ability. I don't find throwing to be cheap...because quite frankly, most players these days are too full of themselves to even expect to be thrown. You do it too huh? Aren't they beautiful? Especially Chun-li's. Posted by Nos99 on 03:02:2001 10:05 PM: Hehe.. Cries of "cheap!" after a throw.. I always say "then hit me.. don't block all day". And if they still say it's cheap then I tell them to do it to me. The thing is, they usually can't.. they suck at throwing (because they don't use it) and get reversed/countered everytime. Hehe, when they start trying to throw usually their whole gameplan falls to shit anyhow because they haven't a clue what they're doing. If it's so cheap, then how comes it's REALLY hard to throw certain players? I've even seen fist fights over throws.. a knife even. And there's that legend about one guys getting shot and killed (?) over SF.. Posted by JumpsuitJesse on 03:02:2001 10:23 PM: This is a test. Oh, and throws are cheap because....no wait...they are not cheap JumpsuitJesse "We gonna git paid!" The Big Hit (img)http://www.infohwy.com/~jessec/Transformers.gif(/img) Posted by Exploit on 03:02:2001 10:30 PM: That's so pathetic. People suck so much at games that they #$*% on themselves by gettin' outplayed, and then taking it out on the better player. Just get over it already. If you suck ass, you suck ass, but don't get angry with the better man. just practice more DAMN!!! [IMG] http://victorian. fortunecity.com/kingston/42/alpha/hair.jpg The game has only just begun. Posted by dairy queen guy on 03:02:2001 10:35 PM: fuck guys who say throwing is cheap. i used to tell guys sorry for throwing them cause i didn't want to offend anyone. now sometimes i go for just the throw. this is especially effective when i've just gotten a lead by hitting them hard with a good tactic and they start to become real careful, still trying to win the match. they block more. i will fucking throw them and if they get mad, FUCK them. i'll throw them over and over again. dickheads. why the hell is throwing in every single capcom game? because ass holes who love to block should go to hell that's why. that is fucking cowardly. unless it is strategic blocking it is cowardly to sit there and block with characters who are designed to attack, or run away with characters designed to fight. fucking cowards. they deserve to lose. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:02:2001 10:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by dairy queen guy: fuck guys who say throwing is cheap. i used to tell guys sorry for throwing them cause i didn't want to offend anyone. now sometimes i go for just the throw. this is especially effective when i've just gotten a lead by hitting them hard with a good tactic and they start to become real careful, still trying to win the match. they block more. i will fucking throw them and if they get mad, FUCK them. i'll throw them over and over again. dickheads. why the hell is throwing in every single capcom game? because ass holes who love to block should go to hell that's why. that is fucking cowardly. unless it is strategic blocking it is cowardly to sit there and block with characters who are designed to attack, or run away with characters designed to fight. fucking cowards. they deserve to lose. Just thought I'd let you know, I agree wholeheartedely, and this post made me laugh. Funny, and true. Posted by Strider Hiryu on 03:02:2001 10:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by dairy queen guy: fuck guys who say throwing is cheap. i used to tell guys sorry for throwing them cause i didn't want to offend anyone. now sometimes i go for just the throw. this is especially effective when i've just gotten a lead by hitting them hard with a good tactic and they start to become real careful, still trying to win the match. they block more. i will fucking throw them and if they get mad, FUCK them. i'll throw them over and over again. dickheads. why the hell is throwing in every single capcom game? because ass holes who love to block should go to hell that's why. that is fucking cowardly. unless it is strategic blocking it is cowardly to sit there and block with characters who are designed to attack, or run away with characters designed to fight. fucking cowards. they deserve to lose. Haha, i have a funny mental image of you in my head rite now playing some guy who deosnt like to be thrown.. http://www.peyros.com/tags/StriderTag.gif Prepare to DIE....[8/27] Posted by Jagger72 on 03:02:2001 11:10 PM: Some SF players just like to wine. I have a friend who plays and no matter who I use he has something to cry "that's cheap" about. If I use Akuma he crys about the dive kick and the hurricane kick. If I use Cody he crys about the standing roundhouse and his corner traps. The list goes on. You know what I do, I keep playing those characters. If he doesn't like it he doesn't have to play. The same goes for throws and anything else, if they don't like it, tough! Posted by SmuvMoney on 03:02:2001 11:11 PM: When I get thrown (normal throw not command throw), I get mad...but not the player/CPU...but at myself. Why? Because in most cases I could have avoided the throw by attacking or counterthrowing or at least attempting a tech hit especially on a walk-in throw. If someone is close enough to throw me, I try to throw them if only to get the tech hit. If someone throws me and I don't at least tech hit, then I should have been paying more attention or reacting faster. Throws cheap? Sheesh that is like so early 90s Street Fighter...LOL Peace & God Bless, $muvMoney John 14:27 & Numbers 6:24 Posted by QUITESSENCE on 03:02:2001 11:15 PM: quote: Originally posted by Strider Hiryu: Haha, i have a funny mental image of you in my head rite now playing some guy who deosnt like to be thrown.. <IMG SRC="http://www.peyros.com/tags/StriderTag.gif"> Prepare to DIE....[8/27] Yea, me too. I've seen it at a local tournament before as well. It was SFA3 and it was Akuma vs Gen.None of the crowd was complaining about Gen's" attackthen run &block" technique. But as soon as Akuma caught on and started repeated throwing the poor sap some ppl started to cry cheap. What the hell?, it's stragety like I said before but I guess that some ppl won't get it (like scrubs). [img] ]http://www.shin2k.tripod.com/galleries/gifaction/chunli1.gif[/img] To fight,giving one's all without regret.That is the essence of a warrior. [This message has been edited by QUITESSENCE (edited 03-02-2001).] [This message has been edited by QUITESSENCE (edited 03-02-2001).] [This message has been edited by QUITESSENCE (edited 03-02-2001).] Posted by Mr. Friendly on 03:02:2001 11:22 PM: Personally, I also don't consider throws are cheap in CvS in any occasion. However, this may lead to another question. I think players can be divided into 2 types(excluding ppl who just fool around with the game). The first type: their objective is "how CAN I kill the opponent?". The second type: "how DO I kill the opponent?" And there is a big difference between these two. Personally, I don't respect any players who is the first type that I mentioned above. But I respect all players of the second type even though they may be really suck. If a player throw once a while when he see his opponent is blocking much, that's a good strategy. But if a player's only objective, game plan, or strategy is throwing in the whole game (excluding using characters like Zangief,Raiden, etc), I really think this kind of person is IDIOT and he is insulting the game. But still, I don't consider they are cheap, but just very very boring. Just like some ppl who play KOF2000, the only think they do are infinites, unblockable and unescaptable moves. The only thing that they want is to win the game, instead of enjoying the process in fighting or having a good fight. Posted by JumpsuitJesse on 03:02:2001 11:48 PM: I'll tell you what's cheap! When you rent a porno, dub it, and then take it back the same day compaining it's messed up and then getting another title....that's cheap! By the way, Javi is a throw junkie! I saw him throw some guy a total of 9 times in one round in Alpha 2...the shit was so funny! JumpsuitJesse "I am da ultimate Latin Lovah!" Boogie Nights http://www.infohwy.com/~jessec/Transformers.gif Posted by Zeruel on 03:03:2001 12:04 AM: I think that if someone complains about throwing, you should throw them anyway, and when they get up and continue to whine away, you throw them AGAIN. Seriously, if they want to play a game that was literally ruined because there wasn't a throwing system implemented, look no further than KI1. This game had to have been compilated by scrubs who sucked at SF, because the no-throw system limited that game to nothing but waiting for overheads. As soon as you were getting comboed, look at your opponents controller and hit the appropriate button for the c-c-c-combo breaker. Then again, people used to get mad when I'd use Fulgore and do Sliding 6, Standing 5, DP 1 to dizzy for 30%. Guess no matter what you play, people will complain... http://www.thebreak.net/arena/tag.gif Posted by Naslectronical on 03:03:2001 12:16 AM: Well, if I throw it's purely by accident. But I don't think it's cheap. All you have to do is throw them back when you get grabbed, and guess what, you take no damage from the throw. Posted by Fakefist on 03:03:2001 12:59 AM: I think what gets people so upset w/ throws is that too many people play not to lose, instead of playing to win. Mentally, if not neccesarily reflected in their play style, most people are turtles. Given that assumption (which you can feel free to agree/disagree with), picture this: you're blocking. You're not getting hit, which means you're not losing. Great. Now, instead of someone attacking you so you can counterattack, they throw you. "Oh shit", you say to yourself. "Blocking isn't safe anymore" (it never really was, but that's another story). It's as if the person throwing just broke a rule -that blocks are always safe- and now is exploiting said broken rule over and over. Every time you reflexively go into your "safe zone" and hold back, the bastard throws you. He jabs, he throws you. He jumps in w/ no attack, then throws you, blahblah, ad nauseaum. "Fucken christ", you say to yourself, "I normally win by letting my opponent mess up and then counterattacking, or by attacking, attacking, attacking, until they're dead. Now I can't just wait them out & block whenever things aren't going my way..." It goes on, but I think I've made my point. The problem with throwing is that it requires you to think ahead and anticipate when it's going to happen to counter it. It's not something you can react to (well, for most people anyway). And my experiences have been that a lot of people don't want to do that. I get mad when I get thrown, but only at myself because it means I wasn't thinking/fell into a routine. Learning to throw and counterthrow has made my game soooo much better. Whoever it was that used KI was right-on. No throws made the game stupid. Long live throws. Posted by CHAZumaru on 03:03:2001 01:02 AM: ok so everybody agrees, let's go eat. the ONLY cheap thing in SF is to call Gouki "Akuma". Akuma means Demon, it's not a name. No, wait, worst: Vega and M.Bison. I mean c'mon, Mike Bison ! The trick was cool, why did they change the name ? Posted by nex2me on 03:03:2001 01:05 AM: I was thinking the same thing lately, Bahn. I posted a thread similar to this so I just took what I said there and put it here. One thing that has been bothering me and has been affecting my game play is "Cheepness". Not that there is such a thing...I mean according to some "If it's in the game then it can, and by all means should be used". I agree with that to some extent. (Remember when playing SF2, and Ryu/Ken could do a jump in short, crouching short, walk up grab repeat. Or Dhalsim with the yoga fire RH kick repeat). Take for instance ...Infinates... some hard to do, others quite easy. Yes it is in the game, but was it put there by programmers choice or oversite. Or the abiltity to do chip/block damage in excess of over 50% damage or more (i.e. Strider/Doom). I think that in 3rd Strike an answer was resolved to a certain extent. For every hit that you add to a combo it lessens the overall damage that is does. Example: Capcom with MvC2 probably did not test each and everyone of the 56 charecter combinations possible. Throw in the different assist types, which change the supers on some charecters and you have headache the size of Texas. Example: Namco with Tekken 2. Jun had an infinate. Yes you could stop her from attacking but the timing for it was small. They fixed this "problem" in later additions. All of this suggest that, ok it was in the game and yes you could use it but we (the programmers) did not intend for that to happen. Of course this is all just my opinion. But I think there has got to be more attention paid to the balance of the game. Not just with supers, or combos, but also with Charecters. I read in a thread once someone made a kind of a joke about 3rd strike. Something to the effect that there are two teirs in 3rd Stike....Every other charecter in the game is teir 1, while Tweleve was in the other. I laughed a bit at the notion, but when you look at what was said was it so far from the truth. Not that tweleve is a bad charecter, in fact I like his design, but can he hold his own against the other charecters in the game? Should balance be described as how two charecters can counter each other? (i.e. Alex's Jump stomp over projectiles) or Should it be kind of like a round robin (I look at round robin as in Rock, Paper, Scissois factor) where Ryu beats Ken, Oro beats Ryu, Ken Beats Oro. With out balance in the game then there is bound to be just the dominate charecters being played leaving little room for the lower tier charecters to be played. If that is the case then why out them in there, they don't stand a chance. Are they just cannon fodder, to be used simply to say "look we have alot of charecters in the game". The idea that when you are blocking you are invincible makes for a very weak defense. You should know that someone can and will take any opportunity to open you up anyway they can. Be it hop kick, top down, or throw.... the object is to have more energy left for your charecter than your opponet. That's all for now Posted by on 03:03:2001 01:31 AM: The only time you should complain is if you get killed by a throw...or by a person that throws you through out the whole fight. Other than that...no one should be complaining. I dash back and forth often...so I don't stay still long enough to be thrown. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Puffy on 03:03:2001 01:38 AM: "Please...stop grabbing me, it's cheap!!!" lol... i thought this thread was about something else... ! http://members.home.net/froiboy/puff_jiggly.gif Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:03:2001 01:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: The only time you should complain is if you get killed by a throw...or by a person that throws you through out the whole fight. Why is that? If, for example, I'm playing someone, and they're not stopping me from throwing them, why should I stop? Don't stop using a tactic until your opponent has proven they can get around it. And why should someone complain if a throw KOs them? How is, say, getting throw, then getting hit six times and KOed better then getting hit six times, then thrown and KOed? Posted by bahn on 03:03:2001 01:47 AM: Ah there's lots of pretty good responses here (and I am sure they'll be plenty more by the weekend). I'll be sure to respond to a number of them shortly...but right now I am actually off to CF to play and I am certain to do what else (well grab when I have the opportunity). nex2me: Heh...you're on a slightly different tangent, and that's a thread topic that I'll prolly hit altogether. I will sift through your comments sometime in the future. Let's keep the comments rolling Fun Fact: Bahn successfully threw someone 5 times consecutively in a match. http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." Posted by on 03:03:2001 02:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite: Why is that? If, for example, I'm playing someone, and they're not stopping me from throwing them, why should I stop? Don't stop using a tactic until your opponent has proven they can get around it. And why should someone complain if a throw KOs them? How is, say, getting throw, then getting hit six times and KOed better then getting hit six times, then thrown and KOed? It's just a sense of honor. However, if your not one to believe in honor...do what you want to do. Sooner or later they will catch on to your repeated actions.....if by chance they are that dense that they don't and continue to let you throw them....the match is in your favor...and by all means continue throwing. However...throwing somebody who sucks so much that they can't escape throws...IMO...is just not right, and lacks honor. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Hentai on 03:03:2001 02:30 AM: I've had people bitch at me for throwing with Hugo and Gief... my answer is always, "hey, you know a better way to play them.. tell me i'll do it" bottom line, people are stupid and bitch about anything because theyre losing. (a few of my other favs are A)dude, Hugo is totally overpowered B)Q Is SOOO overpowered and (my personal fav) C) V-Dan is way too strong! ) Posted by CHAZumaru on 03:03:2001 02:34 AM: "hentai" !? Boy what a nickname Posted by Hentai on 03:03:2001 02:35 AM: (btw those are comments ive heard from people i've beaten, not comments ive made myself.. for people who were confused) Posted by LOLO on 03:03:2001 02:46 AM: lol... hehehe... no... throwing is not cheap~~ even w/ its super high piority it's still not cheap~~ since u can always do a throw-escape if u sees it coming~~ if u don't sees it, lol, means u are just not good enough~~ =) personally i think SF3 3rd Strike have the best throwing system ever~~ since the throw is executed by press LP+LK~~ unlike CvS or other games it's deal by pressing forward + P or K~~ which suck shit coz sometimes ppl doesn't do that as a throw, but he throw anywayz by the flaw~~ Posted by CHAZumaru on 03:03:2001 02:50 AM: that + kara cancel makes me agree with LOLO Posted by LOLO on 03:03:2001 02:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by CHAZumaru: that + kara cancel makes me agree with LOLO yea~~ hehehe... ChunLi's air-kara-cancel rules~~ Posted by Who on 03:03:2001 04:04 AM: I agree with PSX2000. I think that people just consider it cheap when they don't know a way out of it. In any of the "new" Capcom fighting games there is some sort of "counter" to a throw. I feel that throwing also allows you to play mind games with an opponent. I rarely play anything other than MvC2....but I like to throw even in that game. After I knock an opponent down I just walk up and throw. Most people expect you to throw a move at them and sit there blocking. Then after you throw them you can throw them again, or walk up and combo them because they think you are going to throw again and they get caught not blocking. Posted by VietLoc on 03:03:2001 04:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by CHAZumaru: ok so everybody agrees, let's go eat. the ONLY cheap thing in SF is to call Gouki "Akuma". Akuma means Demon, it's not a name. No, wait, worst: Vega and M.Bison. I mean c'mon, Mike Bison ! The trick was cool, why did they change the name ? capcom changed the name when sf came to america to prevent any future law suits from happening ie mike tyson suing them. i think this is why, not 100% sure, but i do remember reading this somewhere. Posted by CHAZumaru on 03:03:2001 04:12 AM: yes actually it's what I heard too? But Vega/balrog ? is it cos vega looks more spanish ? Posted by LOLO on 03:03:2001 04:38 AM: quote: Originally posted by CHAZumaru: ok so everybody agrees, let's go eat. the ONLY cheap thing in SF is to call Gouki "Akuma". Akuma means Demon, it's not a name. No, wait, worst: Vega and M.Bison. I mean c'mon, Mike Bison ! The trick was cool, why did they change the name ? lol... hehehe... have u forgotten Sakura?? our lovely cheery bloosom~~ seriously characters' name doesn't make sense~~ especially in EX we got Skullomania~~ lol... Posted by Dasrik on 03:03:2001 12:15 PM: Codes of honor are for idiots. PERIOD. Posted by LOLO on 03:03:2001 04:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Hentai: I've had people bitch at me for throwing with Hugo and Gief... my answer is always, "hey, you know a better way to play them.. tell me i'll do it" bottom line, people are stupid and bitch about anything because theyre losing. (a few of my other favs are A)dude, Hugo is totally overpowered B)Q Is SOOO overpowered and (my personal fav) C) V-Dan is way too strong! ) lol... u got a great name hentai~~ hehehe... yea... someone was whine at me long ago~~ that i keep using Makoto's command throw~~ lol... oh yea he was so pissed off~~ so he keeps losing and losing~~ gez... i mean, it's not a normal throw, it's command throw~~ it's most useful but it's slow~~ ppl should be able to get out of it~~ only becoz they dunno the way to escape from those throw, they whine~~ whenever they run into sthg they dunno, they'll just tell u to stop using it but not asking how the hell to escape from those attacks~~ i don't see y there are so much loser out there~~ http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif Posted by Pungza on 03:03:2001 09:22 PM: Ask Justin what he thinks about grabbing I thinking grabbing isn't cheap. It's part of the game. Respect it http://psychosquall.homestead.com/files/pungza.gif Don't be mad when your shorty is screaming name instead of your's Posted by Death Scythe on 03:03:2001 10:10 PM: Mike, now you know all of Justin's tactics has to do with some form of grabbing. I think he grabbed me like 10 times in just one match in MvsC2. Anyways, take that nasty pic off as your signature. ;/ Oh and Todd Dwyler, are you any good in MvsC2? I'm not saying it to seem superior or anything, but I noticed you live in Prospect Park and thats not far from Jersey City. Maybe one day we could play at Chinatown Fair. One.-Ramon Posted by on 03:04:2001 03:00 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik: Codes of honor are for idiots. PERIOD. That's your opinion and your entitled to it. Many may disagree. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:04:2001 03:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik: Codes of honor are for idiots. PERIOD. I second that notion, your honor. Posted by on 03:04:2001 03:16 AM: The sense of honor I'm talking about is royally kicking someone's ass...using extreme skill...and showing no remorse...but WITHOUT being considered cheap. I'm not talking about bowing to somebody after you beat them... I would THINK that must of us go by this code.... ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:04:2001 03:19 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: It's just a sense of honor. However, if your not one to believe in honor...do what you want to do. Sooner or later they will catch on to your repeated actions.....if by chance they are that dense that they don't and continue to let you throw them....the match is in your favor...and by all means continue throwing. However...throwing somebody who sucks so much that they can't escape throws...IMO...is just not right, and lacks honor. Uh-huh. I suppose I shouldn't use Magneto in Marvel 2 if they don't know to block low. I don't believe in honor in fighting games. This isn't fuedal Japan or medival Europe. It's an arcade. I'm playing to win and have fun. If they're blocking and I can't hurt them with normal moves, they get thrown. That's what throws are there for - to prevent turtling. Is turtling honorable? There are very, very few things in fighting games that I think are crappy, and they're usually glitches like Guile's handcuffs, Gief's magical SPD, or Gambit's vacation. Throws I certainly do not list as something that shouldn't be used. They're in there for a reason. And you still didn't answer me - you said one should only be mad if they get KO'ed by a throw - I asked what the difference is between getting thrown once, then hit with normal attacks until one is KO'ed, as opposed to getting hit with the normal attacks first, then thrown to be KO'ed. I see no difference. If there were no throws, there would be nothing stopping people from hitting or comboing you once, then blocking in the corner until time expired. That certainly wouldn't be "honorable." Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:04:2001 03:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2: The sense of honor I'm talking about is royally kicking someone's ass...using extreme skill...and showing no remorse...but WITHOUT being considered cheap. I'm not talking about bowing to somebody after you beat them... I would THINK that must of us go by this code.... Your code requires that one considers throws cheap. I don't. Posted by on 03:04:2001 03:27 AM: There is no difference. Your right...everything you said makes sense. Is this what you want to hear? Well....you heard it. I go by a code when I play. I'm not part of a cult that's asking any of you to join...so if you think being honorable during a fight is BS...so be it. I have no choice but to respect your opinions. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! [This message has been edited by GeoG2 (edited 03-03-2001).] Posted by on 03:04:2001 03:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite: Your code requires that one considers throws cheap. I don't. Like I said earlier...I don't consider throws cheap. ------------------------------------------------------------ http://kof5.tripod.com/Image7.png Custom Tag ID: "Void of Dark Dreams" Tae Kwon Do...learn the basics! Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:04:2001 03:33 AM: It's all good, GeoG2. There's room for everyone's opinion. Throws are in there for a practical reason - PSX2K and Who said it best - people say something is "cheap" when they can't get around it. Instead of making an effort to counter whatever beats them, they simply make an excuse. I don't really think anything is cheap anymore. I think the last practical action in a match that I'd call even remotely cheap were Akuma's unavoidable Raging Demon traps in Alpha 2. Other than that, barely anything registers on my "cheap" radar, mainly because I don't have one. Posted by Hugo on 03:04:2001 03:49 AM: THROWS ARE CHEAP???? HUGO CRY!!! Posted by DrunkinB on 03:04:2001 04:27 AM: If u dont want to be thrown dont sit their waiting or peeps will just walk in and throw u. Most or all games have tech hits to get out of throws so it could be avoided. So basically throws are not cheap, they do damage like any other moves. Techinally any game with grapples all their moves are throws n u would consider them cheap. It would almost be callin Zangief cheap!!! http://www.peyros.com/tags/DrukenBtag2.gif Posted by DarthSalamander on 03:04:2001 04:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by nex2me: I read in a thread once someone made a kind of a joke about 3rd strike. Something to the effect that there are two teirs in 3rd Stike....Every other charecter in the game is teir 1, while Tweleve was in the other. I laughed a bit at the notion, but when you look at what was said was it so far from the truth. Not that tweleve is a bad charecter, in fact I like his design, but can he hold his own against the other charecters in the game? hehe that was my joke. Twelve could of been cool but he was not designed with enough positive attributes. If they made him a tank like Q and gave him a few decent comobs he be so much better. "You spoony bard!" - Tellah(he died for you) Posted by bahn on 03:05:2001 02:21 PM: Damn...hella posts up in here...and it seems to be talking about a whole bunch of other things to. Heh. Just to comment real quick: kara throws can seriously annoy the heck out of anyone, since it has a substantial degree of factors in setting opponents up into other situations that compromises they're gameplay. It's to be expected in high level gameplay. You usually don't see too many grabs in MvC2 (at least I don't...I am always seeing lockdown traps, but if anyone complains about grabs in this game, I personally think they have issues) Anyhow...once again to those that expressed to me about throws being part of the game, I totally agree with you. My thread theme is to guage what everyone's thoughts are on the entire subject (there's actually more to the story which went down at the Port Authority, but I decided to leave it out), I may mention some of it in my upcoming thread that I'll be posting some time later this week... http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." Posted by nex2me on 03:05:2001 11:49 PM: Hey Bahn, i know that i was kind of on a tangent but maybe this might clear it up. What i was mainly tring to get across was that Capcom has rarely gone through their games to make it completely free from glitches. I mean what have they come out with that has not been 100% glitch free. Maybe hyper fighting, Super Turbo... I ask this.....Do you really think that they went through all 56 charecters and the different combinations their of in MvC2. I highly doubt it. When i talked baout the infinates it was in reference to the fact that people say "if it is in the game, then it should be used". Is that a valid justification? I mean how exactly does one know what a programmer did and did not want to put into a game? Where they there sitting right next to them and the programmer said "lets give them the ability to pick someone up off of the ground and throw them"? So you can throw, we all know where it really started in terms of it being "cheep", but through the evloution of the different series we have seen the adaptation of being able to land, safe fall, tech roll, grab reveral (where you get out the throw before it happens). hope that cleared up things Posted by bahn on 03:06:2001 05:02 AM: Ah yah...that's a given. Capcom simply just doesn't playtest their games as thorough as they possess the ability to. It's really ashame, but you can't really blame a player for making use of such glitches (that are approved of course in tournament enviroments in particular) and consider them showing a lack of skill, or proclaiming they're players w/o honor (whatever that means). The basis of my thread regarding throws was based on the aspect that situations will arise as it did last week which resulted in my use to execute several throws throughout the game. On on session, my opponent flared up because he happened to be "up" (read: currently winning with more life), and thus to even out the match, I began to throw him. Naturally he took this as being "cheap" and then went on shouting out how skilled and such he was. That whole day was pretty laughable (albeit a tad irritating) since they proclaim to know how to play the game, but essentially they don't know the overall structure of what needs to be executed in a given situation. http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." Posted by AmakusaShiroTokisada on 03:06:2001 05:32 AM: A throw maintains the momentum of the game. Et lux perpetua! Posted by Nos99 on 03:06:2001 06:03 AM: well.. ST has glitches. HF is probably the most glitch-free SF game.. I can't think of any right now. CPS1 chain could be considered a glitch/bug maybe? And about bahn's opponent whining on the cheapness saying how skilled he was.. I guess he wasn't skilled enough to stop throws. lol. Posted by LOLO on 03:06:2001 06:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Nos99: well.. ST has glitches. HF is probably the most glitch-free SF game.. I can't think of any right now. CPS1 chain could be considered a glitch/bug maybe? 3rd Strike is the most glitch free fighting games~~ other then the super art naming glitch of Yang's #II super on the 2P side in the American version, the game is perfect~~ KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by bahn on 03:06:2001 02:58 PM: Heh. Perfect? I have yet to find any SF title released by Capcom (or a fighting game for that matter) that's actually perfect. http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." Posted by LOLO on 03:06:2001 03:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by bahn: Heh. Perfect? I have yet to find any SF title released by Capcom (or a fighting game for that matter) that's actually perfect. but seriously 3rd Strike IS the most glitch-free game made by Capcom~~ KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by bahn on 03:06:2001 03:26 PM: Heh. Perhaps. ^_^ Posted by LOLO on 03:06:2001 03:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by bahn: Heh. Perhaps. ^_^ AH~~~ fine... KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:06:2001 05:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite: Uh-huh. I suppose I shouldn't use Magneto in Marvel 2 if they don't know to block low. I don't believe in honor in fighting games. This isn't fuedal Japan or medival Europe. It's an arcade. I'm playing to win and have fun. If they're blocking and I can't hurt them with normal moves, they get thrown. That's what throws are there for - to prevent turtling. Is turtling honorable? There are very, very few things in fighting games that I think are crappy, and they're usually glitches like Guile's handcuffs, Gief's magical SPD, or Gambit's vacation. Throws I certainly do not list as something that shouldn't be used. They're in there for a reason. And you still didn't answer me - you said one should only be mad if they get KO'ed by a throw - I asked what the difference is between getting thrown once, then hit with normal attacks until one is KO'ed, as opposed to getting hit with the normal attacks first, then thrown to be KO'ed. I see no difference. If there were no throws, there would be nothing stopping people from hitting or comboing you once, then blocking in the corner until time expired. That certainly wouldn't be "honorable." I think most people refer to that supposed "code of honor" only when it pertaing to throws. I, for one, will allow someone to throw me back if I do it just to see whether or not the person will accept it or not. If they take the grab, it usually means that they think that grabbing is "cheap", so I ususlly try to beat them without using them... something that I like to do anyhow. If they don't take the grab, they'd usually say something like "Don't worry about it". This tells me that they don't find grabs to be cheap, and we just fight as usual. Yeah, I know... "codes of honor" suck and you should just play how you wanna play. However, I'm in it just to have fun. So, when I'm in an arcade where I don't know anyone I do try to act chivalrous just to avoid conflict that isn't on the fighting screen. There's nothing wrong with taking the extra steps to make a game more enjoyable for everyone involved. That doesn't make them any lesser of a fighter than the person who has a "win by any means necessary" attitude... As for your no throw theory? Well, maybe... but there are other techniques that could be used in order to punish those that would turtle. Like for instance, you start to lose your Super Meter like in Guilty Gear X and/or the classic SNK fighter Agressors of Dark Combat. Or, just give each character more trickier moves that must be either blocked high or low. They'd probably add more things like this in a game if there was absolutely no grabbing in it. But since every modern fighter does have them it's a rather moot question. [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-06-2001).] Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:06:2001 07:40 PM: LOLO - SF3:3S isn't perfect. Kara-cancelling, anyone? Psycho Soldier - if that's how you play, I suppose that's all right, but I'll never change what I'm doing just because an opponent might find it frustrating or "cheap." An advantage of doing things that others find "cheap" is that it pisses them off...and no one plays good when they're angry. And the titles you mention that have something besides throws to prevent turtling aren't Capcom games. Posted by GameFreak on 03:06:2001 08:45 PM: SF3-3S is quite glitch free. And it's a highly skilled game. I can definitely say a guy without a good reflection can hardly be good in this game. Unlike MvC2 IMO. You really need to be smart to out-think your opponent. by the way, there is a UNBLOCKABLE glitch in SF3-3S for Urien's mirror super. Correct me if I am wrong Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:06:2001 09:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by GameFreak: by the way, there is a UNBLOCKABLE glitch in SF3-3S for Urien's mirror super. Correct me if I am wrong Oh, okay. That too. So, we have kara-cancelling, the unblockable Aegis Reflector, and the unblockable Yagyou-Dama. 3S is far from glitch free. Posted by nex2me on 03:07:2001 12:07 AM: I have heard about that Urien glicth. And i know that Japan they have an updated version of #rd Strike where that glitch has been taken out. Along with a few other thing taken away and added to that new version. But alas it will never make it to US shore. What glictches do you find in HF? Posted by Dr. Deelite on 03:07:2001 12:27 AM: I don't know how I forgot about Urien. I do that all the time. Posted by Slick on 03:07:2001 12:52 AM: Hey, Bahn....Might you want to move this one to Strats and Tactics? More posts later Posted by Slick on 03:07:2001 02:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by nex2me: Hey Bahn, i know that i was kind of on a tangent but maybe this might clear it up. What i was mainly tring to get across was that Capcom has rarely gone through their games to make it completely free from glitches. I mean what have they come out with that has not been 100% glitch free. Maybe hyper fighting, Super Turbo... I ask this.....Do you really think that they went through all 56 charecters and the different combinations their of in MvC2. I highly doubt it. When i talked baout the infinates it was in reference to the fact that people say "if it is in the game, then it should be used". Is that a valid justification? I mean how exactly does one know what a programmer did and did not want to put into a game? Where they there sitting right next to them and the programmer said "lets give them the ability to pick someone up off of the ground and throw them"? So you can throw, we all know where it really started in terms of it being "cheep", but through the evloution of the different series we have seen the adaptation of being able to land, safe fall, tech roll, grab reveral (where you get out the throw before it happens). hope that cleared up things This is an interesting post. I can't pull up the details at the moment, but this reminds me of a question that I asked (and Choi responded to) about crouch cancel infinites. I think it had to do with the fact that they were being allowed in some tournament. Choi's reasoning was (I believe - I'm not putting words in his mouth!) that there were certain setups used for the crouch cancels that could be detected and avoided. I'm not so sure that I agree with that, because that requires both players be *REALLY* good. To take that analogy a little further (over to the vs. series) there is a setup for most infinites up to MvC2 that is fairly standard, which involves a launcher XX air combo. If I extend the analogy, then all's I need to do to avoid infinites in the vs series is to not get launched, right? Hopefully, someone understands what I'm getting at - even knowing everything about the game does not guarantee that you will be able to avoid every attack. And thus, my feeling on infinites in general is: 1) The skill involved in doing them/setting them up must be respected at first - eventually the infinite comes down to repeated button presses, which a trained monkey can execute (yes I know infinites take practice/pulling them off in battle vs training mode...blah blah 2) I'm fairly sure that most if not all infinites are *NOT* intended by the programmers. If they were, then I don't want to play any game like this, as this says alot about the mentality of the programmer/developer. 3)Due to my feelings about 1) and 2), I feel that infinites should be banned in tournament play, and only allowed in casual play if both players agree. More on this subject later... R.E. throws though, I throw myself, and I never thought throws were cheap (I used Chun back in C.E. days). If throws are cheap, then chip damage is cheap (though in MvC2 someone starts to wonder..). Why is it cheap to "cheese/chip" someone out when they have very little life left but okay to block fireballs and other chipping damage moves with a full life bar? Most players just aren't conscious of damage from chips until it matters (i.e. they are about to lose the match). /RANT OFF :} Posted by Slick on 03:07:2001 02:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by bahn: Damn...hella posts up in here...and it seems to be talking about a whole bunch of other things to. Heh. --snip!-- You usually don't see too many grabs in MvC2 (at least I don't...I am always seeing lockdown traps, but if anyone complains about grabs in this game, I personally think they have issues) --snip!-- The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." I love posting a block of replies all at once...not quite... Actually, throws in MvC2 are really useful, if you can pull them off - that is actually make it to the other character without getting assisted or comboed. Throws protect you from the assist, as well as setting up mind games. I'd throw in MvC2 for the protection from assists only! Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:07:2001 02:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite: And the titles you mention that have something besides throws to prevent turtling aren't Capcom games. Yep, I know... Guilty Gear is from Sammy and Agressors of Dark Combat is from SNK/ADK. However, they are effective ways to prevent turtling nevertheless. It would be interesting to see a future Capcom title implement something similar to punish too much turtling in the future. They kinda did this in Alpha 3 with their version of the guard crush, but I think actually losing your super meter would be better since your opponent doesn't have to force you to do it... a player would be doing it on their own will if they stayed in block animations for too long. [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-06-2001).] Posted by Slick on 03:07:2001 02:31 AM: quote: Originally posted by nex2me: Hey Bahn, i know that i was kind of on a tangent but maybe this might clear it up. What i was mainly tring to get across was that Capcom has rarely gone through their games to make it completely free from glitches. I mean what have they come out with that has not been 100% glitch free. Maybe hyper fighting, Super Turbo... I ask this.....Do you really think that they went through all 56 charecters and the different combinations their of in MvC2. I highly doubt it. --snip!-- The final item that I wanted to comment on. You see guys like Omni, Choi, Chen, and Jay (Snyder) post some amazing insights into the combo system and fighting engine of myriad SF games. Sometimes the articles that they come up with are things that I noticed myself. But more often than not, I read their analysis and go "hey, this is good! I probably wouldn't have figured this out except by accident, and then might not have been able to duplicate it anyways!" Then we vids by MikeZ as well. I am with you, nex2me, I highly doubt that Capcom tested their games fully - because let's face it - Capcom is lazy these days. Don't get me started on CvS...(Where's the "run" in the arcade!) But the question I have to ask is that some of these guys - Mike, James, Derek, John, Jay - should have been noticed by Capcom by now. You'd think that if they have a Japan testing contingent, they could test some stuff in America as well. *Someone* should be signed on as a freelance or whatever consultant in the bug/beta testing capacity! This way, some of the foolishness in the games could be worked out beforehand. After all, didn't Mike comment in his vid that he noticed the Akuma glitch within 5 mins of using Tien Akuma? Am I the only one that believes in the creedo "good things come to those that wait". I'd rather Capcom not rush a game, take their time and get it down perfect or close to it, rather than rush out some half-assed piece of slop just to make money. Better tested games can probably recoup a bit more money than bugged games - leastways, I think so... Posted by nex2me on 03:07:2001 02:50 AM: Thanks...Slick...for the response. I WHOLE HEARDTEDLY AGREE!!!!!!!! Capcom should stop rushing games, allow for more beata testing in Japan and espically in America. Lets do that Slick. We can make a living out of it..hahaha...(yeah right, i hear that if you are a beta tester out with acclaim in Long Island you get paid $9 and hour and all you do is say "run into a wall in mario brothers for 2 hours to see if any thing happens") ....Imagine this if you will. (this is in regards to chip damage) if you could chip damage someone to death. I mean i know that Strider/Doom chip damage combo does close to 100%. Is that fair? i mean a throw whether done with a full bar of energy or very little is a throw. You might get out of it with a tech grab or landing. But chip damage from a constant offensive player...hhhmmmmm i wonder what you would call that? Why does no complain about 'Gief doing throws? I mean it is a throw is it not? Is it because he is a wrestler, and that "Is" his main attack. If you catch someone with 2-three of those Spinning Pile Drivers you can pretty much count your "days" left...hahahha. I am not complaining about him, i am just throwing this out there ot anyone who says that throwing is cheap, cheezie...what ever that's all for now Posted by Slick on 03:07:2001 02:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: Yep, I know... Guilty Gear is from Sammy and Agressors of Dark Combat is from SNK/ADK. However, they are effective ways to prevent turtling nevertheless. It would be interesting to see a future Capcom title implement something similar to punish too much turtling in the future. They kinda did this in Alpha 3 with their version of the guard crush, but I think actually losing your super meter would be better since your opponent doesn't have to force you to do it... a player would be doing it on their own will if they stayed in block animations for too long. [This message has been edited by Psycho Soldier (edited 03-06-2001).] ...But how is that going to work? Suppose you are blocking a VC and waiting for the right moment to counterattack when the meter runs out. You do the motion for a super, but nothing comes out because your super bar dimished while blocking the attacks...wtf!? It would have to be something well thought out. Hey...post a skeleton of how your idea would work so we can comment on it! I think the game engine would have to determine what attacks would count as combos if the opponent didn't block them, and then start to drop the super bar if the defender blocked more than one "entire combo" without trying to counterattack. If it were just based on a timer that counts down while someone is blocking - there is that problem in most? SF games that even if one player is standing there jabbing from across the screen, the other player automatically blocks if nothing else is done... Btw, the guard crush is a nice idea, but I think that the guard bar r.e. alpha counters should have been thought out a little better. A player shouldn't get punished for free by the game system itself by choosing to counterattack - ever... Posted by LOLO on 03:07:2001 04:38 AM: quote: Originally posted by GameFreak: SF3-3S is quite glitch free. And it's a highly skilled game. I can definitely say a guy without a good reflection can hardly be good in this game. Unlike MvC2 IMO. You really need to be smart to out-think your opponent. by the way, there is a UNBLOCKABLE glitch in SF3-3S for Urien's mirror super. Correct me if I am wrong u can block the unblockable if u are using Ibuki or sthg fast characters~~ even if u missed ur recovery roll, ur character should got up in time before Urien jump to the other side~~ but don't forget to block in the other way thou~~ KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by LOLO on 03:07:2001 04:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite: LOLO - SF3:3S isn't perfect. Kara-cancelling, anyone? Kara-Cancel eh?? i called that a skill, not a glitch~~ it's just like Super-Cancelling~~ both of them cancel a normal move into a special move~~ u call that a glitch too?? KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by Psycho Soldier on 03:07:2001 10:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by Slick: ...But how is that going to work? Suppose you are blocking a VC and waiting for the right moment to counterattack when the meter runs out. You do the motion for a super, but nothing comes out because your super bar dimished while blocking the attacks...wtf!? Well, I think the best way to explain this is to explain how the super meters work in both Guilty Gear X and Agressors of Dark Combat. Both games require you to attack in order to raise your meter, just like any other fighter out there. The differences is how the penalty is placed. In Guilty Gear X, you get a "negative penalty" if you just stand in the opposite corner and do nothing. However, you'd have to stay in a "block" position for a lengthy period of time in order to be penalized, so even if you do try to attack at least once, you probably won't be affected. In Agressors of Dark Combat, there was no guard crushes so a person could block all day. However, in order for your moves to do more damage and to use your super move, you had to constantly be fighting. When you started to slow down, your meter would slowly start to diminish... and considering it takes about 2-3 bars in order to use your "super move", you'd definitely want to be fighting and connecting with as many combos as possible. I can understand how in a game like MvC2 this wouldn't be the best of ideas... with teams that can do 100% chip damage, the last thing you'd want to be a victim of is a "negative penalty". CvS2 may benefit from something similar to Agressors, but still give players the ability to do super moves with with one level of meter charged like they always had. quote: Btw, the guard crush is a nice idea, but I think that the guard bar r.e. alpha counters should have been thought out a little better. A player shouldn't get punished for free by the game system itself by choosing to counterattack - ever... The one thing that I hated about the Alpha 3 Guard Crush is that it had a meter... being used to an SNK formula, I know that on average 4 blocked CD attacks would equal a "guard crush". All other moves varied in guard crushing ability... for instance, 17-19 toe taps also equalled a guard crush. But knowing this, I kept it in the back of my mind when I fought. Plus, the guard crush in A3 was "extremely long", unlike other games I've played that had guard crushes. It basically was too easy to cause them (because of the meter), and gave you too much of a reward if you were able to do it. The most ideal guard crush system was in Garou: Mark Of The Wolves... simply put, the more you blocked, your character started to flicker red. It would get brighter and brighter until you were eventually guard crushed. And if you were guard crushed, you wouldn't stay in a stunned animation for 2-3 seconds, like in A3. These may not be the best explanations, but it's 1:45 in the morning and it's my birthday... guess I should have not had that last beer. Posted by bahn on 03:07:2001 04:48 PM: Heh. You can always repost your explanation when you've had some rest. Anyhoo...I like the guard crush system in the game, because it carries the theme of being more offensive (though of course there's that demographic that aspires to turtle in all possible situations). http://www.the-nextlevel.com/staff/bahn/teaminterpol.gif The Next Level "You must learn to block or my speed will always overcome you." Posted by Gen.Uile on 03:09:2001 12:48 AM: Bahn,you have a good thread going on here.I would like to take an opportunity to give my views on infinites,throws ect. Firstoff,I have no problems with throws in the game.It keeps your opponent on their feet,not to mention they do good damage.(depending on the game)Throwing is part of the game, and can be annoying when you are not 100% focused on the game.Only gripe is I wish the counters were a bit more reliable or a more reasonable window to counter. Now on to infinites.Ture unescapeable infinites should not be allowed in tournament play.Where is the competition when one can end the match with for all intents and purposes one it.It only takes one hit to start the infinite.With my statement I hit a gray area in MvC2.With so many lockdowns and infinites things become difficult.In MvC1 the Red Venom lockdown was outlawed in tournaments.So why now in MvC2 all these lockdowns become legal.Is it because the whole game now revolves around these tactics?This becomes another issue. Bahn you did a great job in addressing this issue,the top brass in this site should be proud.Maybe they should you you your own collumn so we can all learn from a,IMO,good role model. "Strength and Honor" Maximus Posted by Slick on 03:09:2001 01:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Soldier: The one thing that I hated about the Alpha 3 Guard Crush is that it had a meter... being used to an SNK formula, I know that on average 4 blocked CD attacks would equal a "guard crush". All other moves varied in guard crushing ability... for instance, 17-19 toe taps also equalled a guard crush. But knowing this, I kept it in the back of my mind when I fought. Plus, the guard crush in A3 was "extremely long", unlike other games I've played that had guard crushes. It basically was too easy to cause them (because of the meter), and gave you too much of a reward if you were able to do it. The most ideal guard crush system was in Garou: Mark Of The Wolves... simply put, the more you blocked, your character started to flicker red. It would get brighter and brighter until you were eventually guard crushed. And if you were guard crushed, you wouldn't stay in a stunned animation for 2-3 seconds, like in A3. These may not be the best explanations, but it's 1:45 in the morning and it's my birthday... guess I should have not had that last beer. I've played GGX, and I usually don't have to think about whether or not I have a super available. But then, I tend to fight agressively. I've never played ADK; what year did it come out on? Also, Garou:MoTW is not anywhere in the Chicagoland area that I know of, so I've never played it. When you say that the character flashed until they were crushed - what happened after the crush; was there a use in guard crushing someone? Posted by kHAoS on 03:09:2001 01:06 AM: I can't imagine why throwing in 3S would be considered cheap. Everyone I've talked to says that's an essential aspect of the game that be learned and I still find throwing to be relatively hard. I still a newbie and I suck at parrying, but I know that it's something I have to learn. Same thing goes for throwing. I figure if I'm good enough, I wouldn't get tossed around as often as I do. Posted by Bernie on 03:09:2001 01:31 AM: quote: Originally posted by Gen.Uile: Now on to infinites.Ture unescapeable infinites should not be allowed in tournament play.Where is the competition when one can end the match with for all intents and purposes one it.It only takes one hit to start the infinite.With my statement I hit a gray area in MvC2.With so many lockdowns and infinites things become difficult.In MvC1 the Red Venom lockdown was outlawed in tournaments.So why now in MvC2 all these lockdowns become legal.Is it because the whole game now revolves around these tactics?This becomes another issue. A few things: MvC1 Red Venom/Spidey lockdown is a genuine glitch in the game. Once activated, the character cannot move unless Red Venom/Spidey hit him. If they had a lead, they win for free. Obviously that shit got banned. MvC2 "lockdowns", or "traps" (I think that's what you're talking about) don't fall in this category. It's a part of the gameplay that doesn't break the engine. It's just a tactic that can be done by either player. Obviously, this should not and is not going to be banned, no matter what some people say about it. Same with infinite combos. They don't break the engine, so it shouldn't get banned. If both players can do it and it doesn't go outside the boundary of the game engine (glitches), then there should be no problem. This is why A3 infinites are now allowed, when they were previously banned. AFAIK, they are possible on both sides, so there's no controversy anymore. That was they only reason why they used to be banned in the first place. Anything else that people want banned is purely subjective, which is not fair to the players because (obviously) not everyone agrees. Posted by Dasrik on 03:09:2001 02:55 AM: I personally don't have a problem with any non-game-locking glitch in any game. The closest thing to a glitch that I actually don't mind seeing banned is the Gambit glitch in MvC2, and that's not even a huge issue for me. We all know I hate people who complain. And I've heard the common whiner regalia... "AHVB x3 is obviously not meant to be in the game, it makes the game so much worse", "assist lockdowns are just as bad as handcuffs, nothing you can do man", and of course, getting back to the origin of this thread, "throws are cheap, you get free damage and you can't block". To all these I have one response: Stop whining and start playing. Against any sort of trap where you feel you can't escape, you have to adjust your gameplay accordingly. Who knows - you just might find a way out. I remember when everyone thought Sentinel/Blackheart was the cheapest thing since grocer brand cola, but because people kept using it, players were eventually forced to either find a way out or stop playing. Unfortunately, most of them chose the latter, which severely pisses me off, because the people who found ways out did it in ways that weren't extremely difficult. My point is, when faced with something that is "gamebreaking", there is only one viable solution, and that is to adjust the way you play. Be aware of the bad situations and try your damn best to avoid them. There are certain attacks you just can't do on Cable. Try not to die on him either. Scan the pattern of Spiral's swords and fight your way through. Pushblock pre-MvC2 Wolverine's rushdown and stick out a low short when you see him having to come too far to rush. Some things suck, and some things get complained about, but for God's sake, don't just give up, drop the controller and say "There's nothing I can do, I might as well quit". Lazy. Posted by Pryde on 03:09:2001 06:29 AM: *Grabs Bahn* Posted by Galactic on 03:09:2001 07:29 AM: Well it used to be back in the days of SF2: World Warrior, throwing was really the only effective way to fight a crazy turtler. And it was considered el cheapo to throw back then because it was unblockable... Some people still have this in their minds, which is not a good idea because times, along with video games, are changing. Throwing no longer does 1/3 of your life bar in damage, and there are a whole bunch of counter throws and stuff to retaliate a throw. The people who whine about how cheap throwing is will just have to learn that it's no longer considered cheap, in fact, it's one of the lesser-damaging and easily read attacks in most fighters nowadays... ^_-; Posted by Galactic on 03:09:2001 07:32 AM: However, I will say this: Being thrown to death is perhaps the most unsatisfying way to lose a match this side of being chipped to death... So that may be a reason many people call it cheap as hell... It sucks to lose a match by being thrown... ^_-; Posted by LOLO on 03:09:2001 08:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by Galactic: However, I will say this: Being thrown to death is perhaps the most unsatisfying way to lose a match this side of being chipped to death... So that may be a reason many people call it cheap as hell... It sucks to lose a match by being thrown... lol... that doesn't happen to me~~ i mean throwing ppl is nthg cheap since u can always do an escape throw from it~~ the only time it is consider to be cheap is ppl throw other ppl accidentally~~ that doesn't happen in 3rd Strike since throws are done w/ pressing LP+LK buttons together~~ but in games (like CvS), it is very often that ur Fierce punch will accidentally changed into a throw command if the characters are real close to each other~~ throw is nthg cheap~~ as long as u do it w/ style then i guess it's fine... KEN http://members.home.net/lolo603/BadBadtzMaru.gif -Engineering Rules- Posted by nex2me on 03:09:2001 10:39 AM: Ok Bernie not that i haven't spoken about this matter before.....BUT....can you fault someone for using all that is availible to them in order to win the match. NO, not in the slightest. Does that person posses less skill than you do? Judgement call IMO. What makes a great player? By what definition or standard do you go by to say "this person is good this person isn't"? As with most things, it is subjective and opinioniated. I remember when killer instinct came out and people fell on either side of the coin about the game. "It was all button memorizing", "it required no skill to do combos". These are words that i use to hear when the game was out. But one thing that the programmers did was think things through. (at least as far as they could for the first installment). Meaning that no matter who your charecter was, no matter who your charecter was fighting against you could always stop a combo with.....Yes a CCCCombo breaker (i miss that sometimes) Was it easy to pull of, ...yes, at least in the context of the better you knew the game and what could be followed by what then you knew what to use to break a combo. (They thought things through) How does this relate to the here and now?!? Well, I am not saying that the usage of infinates is wrong. But one of the main resons why throwing was so hated was that, back when, you could do nothing to counteract it. Now adays you can either tech grab out of a throw or you might safe fall from throw. Their are a variety of ways that throwing has been, how can we say, not deemed as being cheap anymore. Can you at any time break out of an infinate? I don't think so otherwise it would not be called such. Was it thought through by the programmers fully? Speaking in terms of play testing what could and could not be done. Espically when it comes to Capcom. I think not. Throws were balanced out, imfinates or the sorts have not. So where does that leave us? Lockdowns/Traps are the new things that has entered the seen to this great an extent. Yes it existed before, but not to the extent that is present today. With the introduction of the three man teams....look what has come of it. 100% or close to it chip damage. A super that can be repeated 5X it so chosen. Infinate assist (as long as you have a back-up) I agree with Dasrik, don't stop playing the game because you feel slighted as to how someone is playing. Figure a way out, there has got to be one. Though that may be few and far between. Magneto's air-tempest combo, for a while dominated because no one new that you could mash out of it. Once everyone knew that you could, that put an end to that. It is true the more people use certain traps/lockdowns, the more you kind of become immune to them. You will find a way out or throught it. Complaining, Me...Never. Just trying to possibly open up new trains of thought. All times are GMT. The time now is 04:07 AM. Show all 107 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.